20 responses so far ↓

• 1 444 // Jul 6, 2009 at 2:16 pm

  I think the lower life expectancy has to do with people here being fatter than anywhere else in the world.

• 2 Meg from FruWiki // Jul 6, 2009 at 2:32 pm

  @444

  That may be true, but then WHY are we fatter? As recent discussions have shown, there are likely many factors. However, I don’t buy the idea that we Americans are just lazier — especially when we work so many more hours per person per year than so many other countries (which may be yet another factor).

  And of course, maybe better health care helps people stay thinner. Goodness knows, it’s easy to gain weight when you aren’t feeling good — and especially if you’re disabled, even temporarily.

  The fact that many weight related diseases are preventable but have huge long-term treatment costs is one reason I am very much for a better health system here in the U.S. — even if it costs the taxpayers more directly. After all, we’re going to pay the costs indirectly if we don’t.

• 3 444 // Jul 6, 2009 at 2:58 pm

  The majority of weight gain occurs because people eat more when they feel good and because they are self-indulgent by nature.

  I don’t think there are greater numbers of disabled people here (excluding those suffering from problems secondary to overweight) than in other parts of the world, so I don’t know about that theory of gaining weight when not feeling good (the extremely ill don’t gain weight, so let’s assume the example given was not referring to them.)

  People don’t lose weight or maintain healthy weights because of health care. They do it because they exercise self-discipline and because they value their health and physique.

  I firmly believe that almost all cases of overweight have behavioral roots and have to do with human nature being what it is (self-indulgent), and vast quantities and varieties of food being available in our country at nearly everyone’s corner store, and maybe also there is a mentality “problem” here like nowhere else (sense of entitlement and demand for instant gratification), therefore, throwing more money and different health care approaches at the problem will yield little in the way of improvements. Others may disagree, of course.

  The obesity maps are darkening year by year and have been for decades, yet I heard they may be stabilizing. Time will tell!

• 4 dogatemyfinances // Jul 6, 2009 at 3:00 pm

  This chart pretty much makes me feel sick.

  We work more, we get less vacation, our healthcare system could not be more whack.

• 5 MLR // Jul 6, 2009 at 3:05 pm

  I agree that we need a massive overhaul of the health care system. MASSIVE.

  But, I do find your logic that because American’s work more hours we aren’t lazier.

  A large part of our economy (now) is people sitting at desks “running reports” or “sitting in on conference calls.”

  We leave our office desk job, drive our cars home, stop at a fast food drive-thru on the way home, and have a large glass of soda with our meal. Afterwards, we kick back and watch some prime time episodes on ABC. Perhaps with popcorn or ice cream. Meanwhile, our kids are downstairs on the Xbox. Not climbing trees or playing street hockey.

  When I bicycled across Europe, in each country I stayed I did not see that kind of lazy life (Other than the UK).

  Anecdotal? Absolutely. But that doesn’t mean their isn’t something to the argument.

• 6 444 // Jul 6, 2009 at 3:05 pm

  Somewhat like the inverse of the other chart.

  http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/hea_obe-health-obesity

• 7 alicia // Jul 6, 2009 at 3:26 pm

  There is no such thing as an American. Know where all those USA people come from: Portugal, Ireland, Denmark, S Korea, Finland, UK, Belgium, Germany, Luxemburg, Netherlands……well, you get the idea. America is made up of people from all over the world. Last I heard, the real, actual native American Indians were doing just fine ringing up those billions of dollars at their casinos.

  I don’t know where you got this table from but the only thing I noticed was the ‘capitalist’ vs the ’socialist’. So, if USA switches over to socialist medicine, we’ll live longer?
  Duh?

• 8 Meg from FruWiki // Jul 6, 2009 at 5:37 pm

  @444

  “The majority of weight gain occurs because people eat more when they feel good and because they are self-indulgent by nature.”

  So… if it is really just that simple, then why do Americans have higher rates of obesity? And why do poorer states, like Mississippi also have higher rates of obesity? Is it because Mississippians just feel better than the rest of us? Are they just more self-indulgent? I think not. And I think it is obvious that there has to be more to it.

• 9 444 // Jul 6, 2009 at 6:05 pm

  You question whether feeling better might be correlated to obesity on a scale. I didn’t mean to imply that I think that is true , but I also do not believe that general adversity leads to eating more and therefore gaining weight. Sorry if I overstated or worded it poorly; I simply meant that I don’t think a prime cause of being overweight is feeling poorly, health-wise or otherwise. Just my opinion.

  As for Mississippi – poverty and obesity are inextricably linked – that’s a documented fact – and I know for sure that it does not have to do with lack of access to food – that much is obvious. By the way, how can you rule out self-indulgence so easily? Do you have data on the self-indulgence tendencies of people in one state vs. another? I don’t, but maybe this is neither here nor there… the wealthiest areas also have the lowest incidence of obesity (I was just reading about Massachusetts tooting it’s own horn about this – with restraint, though, as they acknowledged that still, 2/3 of the adult population is overweight there.)

  I think the “more to it” is psychological; you appear to think there is a health secret that can be unlocked with more access to health care, more or better health care or something. Maybe you’re right; I just tend not to suspect that’s where the answer to this country’s obesity epidemic will be found.

  Maybe you or someone else will come up with the exact answer – it certainly needs to be found – and I don’t think I have it. But some connections are obvious: Too much food, the wrong kinds of food, not enough exercise, and apparently, for the most part, denial of the problem or maybe some indifference to the problem on the part of individuals, since it is only getting worse.

• 10 MLR // Jul 6, 2009 at 6:20 pm

  I actually put all of the data into a Google Doc.

  For each state I put the obesity rate and median income and figured out the correlation.

  r= -0.413

  A medium strength negative correlation. (Negative meaning as income goes down obesity rates go up)

  Then I thought to myself… what about cost of living differences?

  So I put the cost of living index into the table and normalized all of the median incomes for each state. I ran the correlation again and:

  r=-0.138

  A weak negative correlation.

  Everyone eats unhealthy, not just the poor.

• 11 Meg from FruWiki // Jul 6, 2009 at 6:24 pm

  @444

  I don’t think it’s a secret that if you feel crappy you’re probably not going to exercise as much as you should (which in turn makes you feel crappier, etc.). There are many ailments which can cause someone to feel crappy. With easy access to affordable health care, there’s a greater chance that people will get treatment in time to not fall deep into the cycle. But if they can’t afford health care at all, or put it off to save money because things are tight, then there is a good chance that they will fall into the cycle and have more problems long term.

  Also, I do think there is still plenty of room for better education about nutrition and even just about what is a healthy weight. For example, there are a lot of parents out there who just do not think that their kids are overweight and need to be told by a qualified medical professional now, when it is easier to turn things around and prevent long term disease. Some might think that it’s obvious when a kid is overweight, but when you’re kid looks like every other kid then you might think everything is fine. In fact, here in the south where overweight is the norm, parents of healthy weight kids often get told — even teased — by family and friends that their kids are too skinny. And of course, parents often have a hard time seeing their kids as somehow less than perfect.

  And anyone who thinks that nutrition information in our public schools is already perfectly adequate must have gone to a better school than me — or at least one that emphasized it more. What I have learned about nutrition came primarily through MANY hours of study outside the classroom because of 1. a genuine interest in the subject and 2. a fear of ending up with preventable diseases like so many people in my family.

  Will better health care solve the weight crisis all by itself? Is that the only factor? Nope. We also need better planned cities, better access to HEALTHY food that is affordable — especially in poor areas. And yes, even then there will be some people who are obese. However, I believe that it will be much less of an epidemic.

  I simple don’t believe that people in other countries are skinnier because they are somehow less self-indulgent. I believe that it is far more likely because they better health care, more walkable communities, and they don’t have diets based around cheap corn and soy.

• 12 LAL // Jul 6, 2009 at 8:09 pm

  444 the statistics are from 2002-2003. I’ve read in NEJM that Europe has GREATLY increased even the past five years the rate of obesity in those countries. Expansion of US fast food apparently. They are catching up fast to the US about 25%.

  What is going on? The US is going up as well.

  MLR part of it is that people don’t use public transit in the US because we don’t invest in it. If we did and had $8/gallon gas we’d be investing in public transit and using it. Walking/biking more. We’re spoiled by cheap gas which is CHEAP because we don’t tax it.

  Alicia, actually it’s been shown by more than obesity and life expectancy that socialized medicine is currently more efficient that our free market capitalistic healthcare.

• 13 fengshui // Jul 6, 2009 at 11:14 pm

  Buy Cobra? Yeah, sure… ha ha ha. Not so much. The Cobra plan I was offered when I was let go this winter is a fabulous deal of $1,300 a month for a “family” policy (me and dh). I would have had to chose between that and feeding us. Considering that we are both healthy, have no health problems, no medications, and need no follow up, we decided to take our chances. I’ve seen a physician ONE time in the past year, at a cost of about $275 for a yearly exam. Hardly worth the $13k or so Cobra would have cost. However, if something would have happened to us, it would have landed us in bankruptcy land.

  It was a decision that I had to make while still a FT grad student. Now that I am looking for FT work, I am confident that I’ll have health insurance again soon.

• 14 fengshui // Jul 6, 2009 at 11:20 pm

  ” Last I heard, the real, actual native American Indians were doing just fine ringing up those billions of dollars at their casinos”

  Ummmm…. Native Americans have a MUCH lower life expectancy. Have you read the rates of type 2 diabetes and hypertension for Native Americans?!?!? It is because they no longer adhere to an indigenous diet of lean game and vegetables. They were given starchy and fatty commodities. Native Americans never had diabetes until the “white man diet” was introduced to them.

• 15 Meg from FruWiki // Jul 7, 2009 at 1:28 am

  Alicia,

  “Last I heard, the real, actual native American Indians were doing just fine ringing up those billions of dollars at their casinos.”

  You heard very wrong. Certainly a few have made lots of money from casinos, but MANY native Americans live in utter poverty. And, having been robbed of their land, they are now as dependent on cheap carbs as other poor Americans.

  You are right to point out that we Americans aren’t such a homogeneous lot, but I don’t think any of us are less “American” because our parents or grandparents were immigrants (though certainly many of us, self-included have “native American” ancestors, too). People have been moving around the globe since time immemorial. Immigration, to some degree, is part of any country and culture’s history.

• 16 Neil // Jul 7, 2009 at 8:27 am

  Hi

  I live in the UK and would never say that it is perfect. I am glad however that whether or not I (or even more importantly my children) receive good healthcare has been more or less removed from the capitalist competition system. I’m happy to strive to achieve the lifestyle I want (cars, home, holidays) but some things are better shared more equally.

  Even under this system we still suffer from a diversion of funds from basic primary care (having enough nurses/midwives to look after people when ill/giving birth/dying) towards expensive treatments that give big profits to drug companies and/or glory to medical professionals (e.g. obscenely expensive anti-cancer drugs)

• 17 LAL // Jul 7, 2009 at 8:40 am

  Fengshui, cobra is very expensive. And native americans do die sooner.

  Meg, I agree that immigration plays a role. But there are many here who have been here for generations as well. The pilgrims and mayflower settlers? Seeking religious freedom. Funny how it’s not so free now.

  And Neil, I agree maybe the UK system isn’t perfect. But I have yet to meet one person from another country who actually likes the US system. Or isn’t worried when they come here, and I know tons of immigrants from Asia and Europe.

• 18 Neil // Jul 7, 2009 at 9:03 am

  LAL – Good point. I love the USA (both as a tourist and because of the historical debt that we owe you for coming to our aid) but 2 things always strike me as being strange about American society:

  1. The subject under discussion – the healthcare system (and yes this would really worry me if I moved to the US).
  2. Gun law

  It’s not as if there is really any ideological reason for the way the healthcare system is funded. After all, you have a “socialist” method for paying for national security!

• 19 LAL // Jul 8, 2009 at 5:19 pm

  Neil, I think healthcare is the way it is, because back in WWII we thought it would be cheaper as capitalism took off.

• 20 Meg from FruWiki // Jul 8, 2009 at 9:15 pm

  Neil, I think both our gun laws and healthcare system are — at least in part — due to being paranoid about the federal government, especially here in the South. And maybe some of that is well deserved.

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