46 responses so far ↓

• 1 Meg from FruWiki // Jun 20, 2009 at 12:03 pm

  I have mixed feelings on this. Having to pay double for your trip is a lot of money — especially if you’re not that well off! And how embarrassing (and potentially career hurting!) it would be as a business traveler to have to tell your boss that they have to buy you an extra seat!

  On the other hand, if you take up two seats, you take up two seats. And I don’t think people should have to be squished — either by the armrests or by each other. So, buying two seats seems more reasonable.

  But on the other other hand, as you said, airlines have tiny seats so that they can save money and make even more money by doubling fares! And should anyone have to pay double when really they just need an extra inch or two!

  I think it is important to be compassionate, too, about people who are overweight. Goodness knows, judging the overweight and smokers are two of the most socially accepted prejudices we have. People who haven’t had weight problems often don’t understand how people get to be so big and they blame the person, when really it is NOT as simple as they think. I know, I’ve been there. I eat healthy, whole foods and try to avoid processed crap and fast food like the plague — but I still struggle with weight while I watch skinny friends of mine wolf down McD’s and Starbucks regularly without gaining a pound. And even at my skinniest (and yes, I’ve been SKINNY), my hips are snug in those tiny seats.

  Whether it’s fair or not, I think this will continue to be yet another tax on those who are overweight or even just large. But personally, I’d like to see a compromise, like paying a little extra — not double — for slightly larger seats.

• 2 Krystal // Jun 20, 2009 at 12:36 pm

  My boyfriend is 6′7″ and he always has problem finding seats that accommodate his long legs. I don’t think it’s fair that he should have to buy a Business or First Class ticket for something that he has no control over. Sometimes if he’s lucky, they give him the 1st row or the emergency exit row, where there is a little more room. But there have also been multiple times that he’s asked a smaller passenger to switch seats out of the 1st row or emergency exit, and they’ve said no. So what’s up with that?

  When we go somewhere, he always hunches over and has to scrunch his legs down diagonally. He is very aware that he might bump the seat in front of him, or he might be obstructing someone’s view at a concert. But what else can he do, besides not fly or not go to events that require people to sit down? It’s not fair.

• 3 dogatemyfinances // Jun 20, 2009 at 12:37 pm

  Hope you’re ready for some flames!

  I don’t really care what the general policy is (and I really feel for the airlines for having to deal with it!) but I am never sitting next to a fattie like that again. Cross-Atlantic, that was one of the worst experiences of my life.

  In my travel experience, they are always American. Nobody in Europe or Asia seems to need a seatbelt extender…

  Life’s not fair. If you want to put your fat or kid or purse or whatever in my seat, you better pay for it.

• 4 tom // Jun 20, 2009 at 6:28 pm

  I agree with dogatemyfinances.

  As for why people are overweight… I have to disagree with Meg. It is as simple as everyone thinks. Eating healthy and exercising regularly is no fun and it’s a lot of work that few fat/obese people are willing to do. It is easier for some to loose and keep off weight, but by and large it’s laziness that holds people back.

  I especially think they should pay double the airfare if they have to buy 2. They should also be forced to buy an extra seat if they even encroach an inch into my seat, if they don’t… boot them off the plane.

• 5 Meg from FruWiki // Jun 20, 2009 at 8:02 pm

  @tom

  For some people it is that simple. However, for others it isn’t.

  My mom can’t exercise much because she has leg and back problems — as well as heart and other problems. She goes to docs for advice, they brush her off. She asked about knee surgery a few years back and they told her she was too young. Now they say she is too old because their standards changed.

  She’s also on diabetes meds which are NOTORIOUS for putting on the pounds. And yes, there are meds that do that — I know from very personal experience and it is absolute HELL because you constantly feel like you’re starving but all you eat goes to fat instead of energy. Fortunately, I’ve gotten off those meds and am losing weight slowly without all that much fuss (I was SKINNY before I got on them, but will probably never be back there again). But I can imagine that it must be equally as tough for those whose bodies naturally make or don’t make whatever it is that those meds do — and they can’t just get off the meds like I did.

  Yes, the diabetes and some of the leg/foot/back problems could have maybe been prevented by not gaining weight in the first place, but once you’re in the cycle it’s tough to get out and many people fall into it as she did through ignorance about nutrition and stressful times (divorced, then widowed, and her companion died as well) and several injuries (the back probs, etc. are not just from the weight). She also had 8 pregnancies (4 of us survived) and a tougher time of course because she is a post-menopausal female. Even the diets she tried did more harm than good because every yo-yo brings you up more. And remember, we live in a country where nutrition labels make sugary cereals look like health food!

  On top of all that, she can’t afford to eat lots of fresh veggies and other healthy stuff. When I ask her why she’s eating Ramen noodles, she replies, “That’s what came in the food box.” She saves the best stuff for her granddaughter and others that live with her — not that there is a lot to choose from. She doesn’t eat a lot of sweets or snacks, but there are a lot of processed carbs and potatoes because that’s what they can afford and that’s what the discount boxes include because it stores well. And, if you’re know about the glycemic index, then you know that eating those things in abundance do easily lead to things like diabetes & weight gain.

  So no, it is NOT just that simple. And my mother is NOT LAZY. You would not believe the things she has done to raise us kids. You would not believe the things she has survived. She has worked long hours and sacrificed more than you can imagine for not just her own kids but strangers, as well. She has never complained about this, but I can see now as an adult what she’s gone through.

  But people like you and Dog would judge her — a woman who ought to canonized for all she has done — because she isn’t a certain weight. You two call her “lazy” and “fattie” because this is the one battle that she cannot seem to win no matter how hard she tries — and trust me, she has tried and tried and tried. You two should be ashamed of yourselves. And you’d be lucky to sit next to her in a plane because there is an awful lot to learn from her.

• 6 LAL // Jun 20, 2009 at 8:03 pm

  Meg, I struggle watching my weight as well. I am definitely aware it’s a struggle. But if you need a seatbelt extender there is no reason why you shouldn’t be forced to buy 2 seats.

  Krystal, I wasn’t in an exit row. I wondered why the hell they didn’t give the tall person the exit row. I just wanted to cry because the seat was being pushed so much and there was nothing to be done! I know it wasn’t his fault and he did apologize, but what the heck. I wasn’t even upright!

  Dog will you refuse to fly? Complain to the stewardess?

  Tom, ouch. MANY people enroach on the space. I am tolerate some enroachment. It’s when it’s overwhelming or the seat being pushed forward that really pisses me off.

• 7 tom // Jun 20, 2009 at 9:12 pm

  Meg,

  1% of all obesity is caused by physical problems. Obviously your mother fits in that 1%. The other 99%… Lazy. I’m sorry for your mothers medical conditions, she sounds like a very wonderful woman, but I am not ashamed to say the other 99% are fat because they lack self control and are lazy.

• 8 LAL // Jun 20, 2009 at 9:35 pm

  Tom I’ll admit my family’s weight problems are due to overeating and being lazy. They aren’t huge and don’t overreach in chairs, but by he BMI index they are all on average 25-30 size, myself right now as well. ouch.

• 9 Danielle // Jun 21, 2009 at 9:43 am

  I think they should have to buy 2 seats or pay for 1st class. My boyfriend is 6′5 and 275. We always make sure to get exit row seating to ensure his long legs have some space.
  Krystal, why on earth would you or your boyfriend expect someone to switch their spacious seat for a smaller one so your boyfriend could be more comfortable. What’s up with that?
  I’m very small and I’ve sat next to big folks on flights and it’s not fun. One person actually lifted the arm rest so they could put more of their body into my seat. I asked the flight attendant to be moved, and am grateful it wasn’t a fully filled plane. That’s just rude.
  If you cannot fit in one seat, buy two. If you can’t fit in size 0 clothes, you buy the size you can fit into, correct?

• 10 tom // Jun 22, 2009 at 10:07 am

  @LAL,

  I’m glad you’ll admit that. Most overweight people, members of my family included, will try to blame anything but themselves.

  @Krystal,

  Being big and/or tall costs more. That is life. He probably already pays more for clothing, so business/first class is another expense. Just because he is tall doesn’t mean the airlines or passengers need to bend over backwards to accomodate him.

• 11 Meg from FruWiki // Jun 22, 2009 at 11:59 am

  @Tom

  Even IF 99% of obese people were lazy, would that give anyone reason to judge them all as lazy without getting to know them? That sounds like the logic of some folks back home who say, “Well, there may be a hardworking Mexican somewhere, but I haven’t met him. So I see no problem calling Mexicans lazy.” Obviously, I disagree with their logic. It’s a bad excuse to be prejudist — and it doesn’t excuse it at all.

  Do you have any studies that say that 99% of obese people are LAZY? And I don’t mean studies that just say that 1% of obese people are that way because of only a few specific diseases like severe hypothyroidism. That’s not the same study. As my mom’s case should show, there are MANY, MANY factors that can make it next to impossible for hardworking, dedicated person to lose weight long term and keep it off. And it should be obvious at any checkout line that many people with a lot fewer obstacles have struggled with their weight.

  Yes, some people will blame others instead of working to help themselves. However, I don’t think the solution is for them to blame themselves. Goodness knows, they get put down enough by society. They don’t need to call themselves the same names. I’d be tempted to grab a donut, too, if I felt that bad about myself and knew others did, too! Instead of placing blame, I think it IS important to recognize obstacles, real obstacles. That way you can try to work around them. My mom understands her obstacles but she doesn’t blame others and I hope she doesn’t just blame herself. And she is still trying, despite all these years of trying and trying and gaining more weight despite her efforts. She hasn’t given up. That wouldn’t be like her. And maybe her newest doc — much more caring than the previous — can help her. Maybe advances in medicine can help her. She’s usually the one helping others, but this time she needs the help.

  The least others can do is just be compassionate and stop judging others on how they look. She knows — they all know — how the world judges them. And it truly is heart breaking to me to see. I know she has a tough skin, but that doesn’t mean it doesn’t hurt her, either. But people think that if they insult “fatties” enough they’ll suddenly realize they’re fat and go get skinny. They say they’re doing them a service — though they have no clue what they struggle with as individuals. Or at the very least, they think that they have some right to poke fun, that they’re morally superior for not being so “lazy”. This has got to stop! This is NOT right! It is disgusting to me as the racist filth I heard back home.

• 12 tom // Jun 22, 2009 at 12:46 pm

  No… I don’t have specific studies. Just Google “Percentage of obesity caused by medical problems”. You’ll find pleanty of medical organizations that support that 1-2% figure.

  Other than in the 1-2% medical cases, what obstacles do the remaining 99% face (just to be clear I’m talking about adult obesity only)? I don’t see any. Instead I see fat people lined up at McDonalds, not buying healthy food (which is not expensive, it just takes time to make). What I see little of is fat people getting exersice. It’s free to go outside and walk around the block.

  I don’t think the 99% deserves compassion. Unfortunately the 1% gets lumped into that category. The 1% should be equally, if not more, as uncompassionate toward the 99% as the rest of us. The 99% caused the stereotyping of the 1%.

  I have little tolerance for fat people that complain about their weight and the ridicule and still don’t do anything about it. Instead of running to food, how about just running or walking? The 99% should be blaming themselves because they have total control over the situation. It just takes a little bit of sweat equity.

  I feel for the 1% that have little control over their situation, but the remaining 99% are a burden on society, look at the economic impact. They consume more of everything, and require more medical care. I don’t have a right to ridicule them, but when they impact my life, especially my wallet, that pisses me off, but to compare that ridicule to racism is just ridiculous and completely absurd.

• 13 Meg from FruWiki // Jun 22, 2009 at 12:56 pm

  I’m very sorry you feel that way and can’t see the truth. I believe that the key to happiness and being a good person is being compassionate. Compassion isn’t about the other person deserving it or not, it is something you grow inside you for all people and beings, regardless of whether they are right or wrong. It’s a desire to help people and not add to the hate, even if you recognize their weaknesses. Know that I have compassion for you. It must be terrible seeing the world and its people through your eyes.

• 14 R. May // Jun 22, 2009 at 2:18 pm

  My sister and my mother are both overweight. They are also lovely, caring, generous, funny, kind. One thing does not define them.

  I think it’s sad that most people would agree that they teach their children to be kind to everyone and then turn around and say nasty things about others.

  And while I agree the % of weight problems caused by medical issues is small compared to the amount of people that are overweight – losing weight is HARD. It’s hard to lose 10 pounds let alone 100. I do not think it’s being lazy. Nor do I think being nasty about it motivates anyone.

  However, if you are too large to fit in one seat I do think it fair to have to purchase two. And honestly it has to be more comfortable for you.

• 15 Meg // Jun 22, 2009 at 3:03 pm

  I feel bad for everybody involved – the airlines who have to tackle the issue, the fellow passengers being encroached upon, and even the obese people themselves (as distinct from the merely overweight, who can usually fit fine into those seats).

  But the fact is that compassion and judgement can go hand in hand. Tom is right, and so is Meg @ FruWiki. It’s 2 sides of the same coin. Fat people have it really tough, fat people are people who should be respected, fat people can be funny and loyal and smart and compassionate, and fat people eat too much and exercise too little. Period.

  Eventually I’m sure airlines will widen seats – just like door makers have widened doors and coffin makers have widened coffins and so on in our country as we all get bigger and bigger. But in the meantime we all have to deal with the discomfort. If I were obese, I’d buy first class or I wouldn’t fly. And I wouldn’t blame the airlines or anybody else for the extra expense.

• 16 tom // Jun 22, 2009 at 10:39 pm

  I have compassion for those who have no control over their own situation. I don’t have compassion for those who do and choose not to do anything ab0ut it. I have a tremendous amount of compassion and respect for the overweight people at the gym everyday.

  Do you have compassion for those who complain that they are in debt because they had to keep up with the Joneses?

  Losing weight is not difficult, eat healthy and exercise. Practice self control and discipline, just like with personal finance… burn off more calories than you consume.

  The airlines will not widen seats. Maybe 1 or two rows… maybe. If they widen each seat by 1 inch, they will have to remove 6 inches from the aisle, which creates a safety risk because now those fat people you were trying to accommodate can no longer fit in the aisle. Not only that, but serving carts have to be redesigned, aircraft manufacturers have to redesign layouts and retrofit their current fleets. It makes economic sense for the airlines to just deal with the situation on a case by case basis, and force fat passengers to buy to seats or upgrade. Plus, if they have a few rows of wider seats, who’s to say that skinny people cannot buy them? I know I would, even though that’s not very compassionate.

• 17 paranoidasteroid // Jun 22, 2009 at 11:59 pm

  I agree that overweight people should be forced to buy two seats, but I don’t see a good way to enforce the policy. After all, if the person next to them doesn’t complain, does that still count?

  Chad and I always try to sit together since he is too big for the seats and I fit fairly comfortably. Together we take up both seats.

  I do think that the legroom situation doesn’t accomodate ANYONE. I am average height, and my legs brush the back of the seat in front of me when it’s reclined! Chad is tall (but not extraordinarily so) and it’s very painful for him to be on a plane. He shouldn’t be forced to pay extra for a seat; he can’t control his height the way one might control their girth.

• 18 R. May // Jun 23, 2009 at 9:17 am

  Well obviously Tom you have never struggled with anything in your life. How fortunate for you.

  So how do you know that person you are judging doesn’t have a medical issue? Or that maybe they used to weight 50 pounds more then now because they are working on making themselves healthier? You don’t.

  It’ easier to stereotype and dismiss then it ever is to try to understand someone.

• 19 Meg from FruWiki // Jun 23, 2009 at 11:04 am

  @tom

  “Do you have compassion for those who complain that they are in debt because they had to keep up with the Joneses?”

  Yes. I see no good reason not to. If I don’t, it hurts me more than them. We have ALL made mistakes. If I only had compassion for perfect people, I’d be a miserable person.

• 20 amy // Jun 23, 2009 at 1:32 pm

  I can’t find it in myself to approach this issue using only logic—i.e, “fat people take up too much room therefore they should have to buy two seats”—and still look at myself in the mirror and feel OK with who I see. Yes fat people are big, yes maybe they should exercise more and eat better, yes some have health issues, and yes I have been squished many a time on my flights, blah, blah, blah.

  I grew up in a household filled with derisive spew aimed at fat people and I can feel nothing but sympathy for how they are perceived, treated, snubbed, ignored, and judged.

  It seems to me that derisive judgment of fat people is the easy way out here—it’s socially sanctioned, you will seldom get called out on it—and heaping scorn on the obese is much easier than fighting airlines for larger more comfortable seats for everyone.

• 21 R. May // Jun 23, 2009 at 1:47 pm

  @ Amy – agreed. I can’t imagine what it’s like to look in the mirror and not like yourself. I also can’t say I would be very motivated to go for a walk when teenage boys in a passing car lean out the window and yell ‘pig’ while making oinking noises. (happened to a friend)

  Anyhoo the sad fact is that obesity is a problem. I don’t think accomodating it is really helping either. I think having to pay for two seats or some semblance thereof is reasonable.

  Really the airlines don’t have to be nice. It’s a business. And I think so many people are unhappy about having their seats encroached on they need a solution. Obviously it’s going to be the best for their bottom line.

  Now what I really wish they would do is stop allowing infants to fly in laps. Turbulance can be nasty! They should be in car seats in their own seat.

• 22 tom // Jun 24, 2009 at 10:28 am

  As I said before… What most people here don’t understand is that the airlines cannot change the width of their seats. They can add a few inches to 1 or 2 rows, but they would have to remove a seat in that row. Most airlines already have these seats, it’s called first and business class. They do cost more, but it’s the unfortunate price you must pay.

  Airline aisles are, at a minimum, 20″ wide. Adding even an inch to the seats would cause a violation of the aisle minimum which is a huge safety risk.

  Bef0re everyone starts to vilify the airlines for having such small width seats, take a long hard look at the dimensions and economics. As paranoidasteroid mentioned… legroom is where airlines are cutting back, and your height is something no one has any control over.

• 23 fengshui // Jun 24, 2009 at 1:24 pm

  “My mom can’t exercise much because she has leg and back problems — as well as heart and other problems”

  exacerbated by obesity most likely…. insurance companies should pay for gastric bypass or lab band, in my opinion….

• 24 fengshui // Jun 24, 2009 at 1:26 pm

  “She’s also on diabetes meds which are NOTORIOUS for putting on the pounds. And yes, there are meds that do that ”

  Byetta helps DM pts lose weight, you should check it out….

• 25 Danielle // Jun 24, 2009 at 2:02 pm

  @fengshui – Insurance should pay for gym memberships, nutrition consultations and the like. Not bypass surgery and other quick fixes.

• 26 Meg from FruWiki // Jun 24, 2009 at 2:39 pm

  To be clear, when it comes to my mom’s case I do think that buying two seats may be the only reasonable option, even if it does mean she gets to travel and see family less. I’m not totally against the notion, it’s just that I wonder if airlines have gone too far when the seats are smaller than the recommended MINIMUM and even average people feel squished. And for those that recommend flying 1st class, have you seen the price difference?! I thought maybe we’d fly first class on our honeymoon — until we saw the price. Outrageous! Seems like it’d make more sense to have a slightly larger section (where average people don’t feel squished to death) that was slightly more expensive — not double the price or more. But hey, maybe they can’t find a way to do that.

  @Fengshui

  I think her new doc just put her on Byetta. Hopefully it’ll help! It’s painful for her to give herself shots, but she’s more than willing.

  And yes, the obesity does exacerbate a lot of her other problems, though they were first caused by arthritis (probably genetic in my family) and NUMEROUS accidents over the years. She was in a severe car accident (got hit by a drunk driver into a semi and back) and several horse riding accidents, and she hurt herself while caring for severely handicapped kids — among other things. Even with the weight, she was very active until these other problems started getting worse and worse. It’s really tough for her, I know. She HATES sitting around the house as much as I do — if not more. But a lot of times she has to use a walker and the nearest sidewalk is miles away.

  @Danielle

  Actually, bypass surgery is hardly a quick fix. I’ve known people who have had it and it doesn’t make life any easier, for sure — even when it goes well. For many, it’s not enough, but for those that have tried everything else it might be a viable option along with other measures.

  I would DEFINITELY like to see more more insurances paying for nutrition consultations and gym memberships (so long as they’re used), but that’s not enough. There isn’t a gym where my mom lives and it’s not enough to know what you SHOULD eat when it’s simply too expensive. People can talk about how it’s worth the money to eat healthy — and it is when you can — but if you can’t afford it you can’t afford it. And if you go to food pantry or get discount food boxes then most of them provide the same unhealthy diet. Those who are able can sometimes grow some food themselves, but if you’re already sick then it might not be an option.

  I really think that as a country we need to rethink the kind of farming we subsidize. I certainly don’t blame our nation’s health problems on it entirely, but I think we’d be a lot better off if the system didn’t subsidize a few things like corn so much that farmers choose to grow them to the exclusion of healthier fruits and vegetables and a more varied diet.

• 27 Danielle // Jun 24, 2009 at 3:12 pm

  @ Meg – I work with several people who’ve had banding or bypass surgery done and it’s definitely a quick fix compared to changing your lifestyle incrementally so that good habits stick and weight comes off at a healthy weight and stays off.

  You are right in that it doesn’t make life easier (in the begining and likely in the long run) which is more of a reason why it should not be covered by insurance.

  It is not as hard to eat healthily on a budget as people make it out to be. There are many online resources that help people eat healthy in a frugal way. Like everything else it takes dedication and desire. People just have to make the hard choice to do what’s best vs what’s easy. And have to decide not to make excuses.

  I’m saying this as if it’s simple and I am aware it is not. Taking responsibility for your actions and being 100% accountable for your experience is hard for people to do.

• 28 Meg from FruWiki // Jun 24, 2009 at 4:45 pm

  @Danielle (et al.)

  I’m open to ideas, but I do know of a lot of ways to cut food costs — which I employ to eat healthily on a budget, myself. But I also realize that a lot of those tips just don’t work when you live in the middle of nowhere where you have one grocery store, if that, and no farmers’ markets. And, again, most food you get through food pantries or discount food boxes isn’t all that healthy. A healthy person can get some food from the land, as my mom has before, but it’s much tougher if you have physical disabilities.

  The lack of grocery store competition is a significant factor, too. Our food here seems much cheaper. Fresh produce is still above what some can pay here, but it costs significantly more where my mom is just a county away. Even gas is usually more expensive there. Again, no competition! When my mom visits me it’s usually because she has to be over here anyway for a doctor appointment — which is fine, I want her to conserve gas.

  And my mom isn’t a dummy when it comes to nutrition. She didn’t raise us on tons of junk food or fast food or t.v. dinners. My mom worked very hard to make sure that her kids had healthier food.

  But you eat what you can afford and add in what healthy stuff you can, especially for the kids. Unfortunately, cheap food is mostly stuff that has a high glycemic index: rice, potatoes, corn, bread, etc. And that can cause a lot of problems long term, including weight control issues and diabetes.

  Anyhow, I don’t mean this to sound like I’m complaining about growing up poor — or even that this all about me or my mom. Money was tighter at some times than others, but I never considered myself poor at all, and I don’t think my mom did either. I’ve known really poor people, and they had it much worse. We might not have had the healthiest diet all the time, but we never missed a meal and yes, we had some treats, too. And yeah, my mom made some mistakes along the way — just like I have.

  My point in sharing all this isn’t to be all “Woe is me!” It’s to illustrate that losing weight IS harder for some — whether due to health problems, money problems, emotional problems, etc. I’ve seen this firsthand, but I know that our case is NOT exceptional at all. I know that a lot of people have it much harder, in fact! And that’s why I think it’s wrong to judge others so harshly based on their weight. And I do think there are a lot of wonderful ideas out there for helping people with this! I don’t want to poo-poo them. But I think it’s important to recognize that there are limitations to those plans and many people will still need more (or other forms of) help with this.

• 29 tom // Jun 24, 2009 at 4:57 pm

  “I wonder if airlines have gone too far when the seats are smaller than the recommended MINIMUM and even average people feel squished”

  No they have not gone to far, you have to understand the history before you judge the airlines and airplane manufacturers.

  Boeing designed the first coast-to-coast plane, that required a narrower body. When designing subsequent families of single-aisle planes, they kept that narrower body. The 737, the most popular plane on the planet, uses that narrow body. It was designed and first flown in the 1960s, when people were much thinner. The Airbus A320 is the newest single aisle airplane on the market offering 18 or more seats, because the cabin is wider. That airplane was designed and first flown in the 1980s, well into America’s fattening.

  None of the commenters here have any idea how much it costs to add 6 inches to the width of a airplane body, not only design costs, but, as the article mentions, added weight and flight costs. We are talking in the hundreds of millions of dollars and years of development/design and testing.

  So, have airlines gone to far?… No. The next single aisle planes will probably have wider bodies and seats, but even a couple inches won’t help the audience this article is targeting.

• 30 Meg from FruWiki // Jun 24, 2009 at 5:06 pm

  @tom

  I do understand the history of air flight — well enough for this discussion, at least. No, it’s not a recent problem, but the study that set the minimum to 17″ was a 1950 study for trains! And some planes have had 18″ seats, so it’s not like they all have to be redesigned from scratch. Yes, it would cost them more, and that’s the trade-off we’re sadly faced with in a time where they’re making even airline forks smaller.

• 31 tom // Jun 24, 2009 at 10:41 pm

  Meg,

  The 17 inch seat decision, at least by Boeing in the 737, was a decision made in the 1960s, when people were thinner, where as Airbus created the A320 in the 80s with 18″ when people were getting fatter. So it’s two different companies at two very different times developing these planes.

  Boeing has 17″ seats and will eventually design a new plane, for the most part, from the ground up to incorporate new technologies found on the new 787.. I imagine they will design in 18″ seats, but with a wider body comes more weight and a higher operating cost.

  Airbus might redesign from scratch to incorporate technologies from the A350. Both of these redesigns won’t happen for another 10+ years as both companies are still struggling to fly their most recently developed planes.

  The point I’m trying to make is that airlines aren’t trying to squeeze people in by slimming seats. In Boeing’s case the cabin was designed in the 1960s, and Airbus’s cabin was in the 1980s and that’s why we have a width difference and why I don’t think they’ve gone too far.

• 32 LAL // Jun 24, 2009 at 10:48 pm

  Actually I do Tom. My brother worked for boeing. Truth is 17″ wasn’t really wide enough in 1950s, how the hell is it supposed to fit now? It doesn’t.

  I understand you need aisle space. I also understand how expensive it to rebuild or tear out seats.

  But wait until someone dies on a plane and is trapped by an overweight dead person, then sues the airlines, and then we’ll have changes.

  I don’t have an answer for being overweight. Yes it’s about personal responsibility, but honestly it’s not as easy as it seems.

  That’s why on this blog I never say people are stupid for being in debt. I understand where they are coming from.

  Well on that point, I understand where they are coming from on being overweight. It’s not easy.

  Does a guy whose 6′4″ and BMI 20 have a right either to jam my seat forward? How is he any better than the chubby person next to me if they both enroach on my space?

  I don’t know how we cure this obesity problem. Maybe we have to turn to free market healthcare.

  Where you pay for your care. Then people would care what goes into their mouthes.

  And unfortunately the poorer you are, the more junk food you eat. Look at Angel Food Ministries! Terrible food for $25! Awful stuff. But cheap and great way to feed a family.

• 33 tom // Jun 25, 2009 at 7:52 am

  Even if 17″ wasn’t wide enough in the 1950s it was a trade-off for the ability to fly coast-to-coast.

  As for height and legroom, that is something the airlines can control. They tell Boeing and Airbus how many rows to jam into their cabins, and some of the newer planes coming off of the assembly lines do have more rows and less legroom.

  I’m completely for a free market healthcare program, because, I agree, if you’re paying for it, you will care.

• 34 LAL // Jun 25, 2009 at 9:27 am

  But Tom, you make one major assumption. That is people will care for their health if they are paying for it.

  I think it’s extremely possible people will not care, until they are broke and need care, then expect the government to pick up the tab. The answer will be I don’t go to the doctor until I’m nearly dead, then I’ll go to the ER, run up the bills and declare BK.

• 35 tom // Jun 25, 2009 at 10:08 am

  True… it’s a huge assumption.

  You make another good point with bankruptcy, you and I definitely pay for that.

  I don’t know where I stand anymore on healthcare. I don’t think a Government run plan is a good idea, they’ve done such a great job with other major programs, but I don’t have an alternative. More preventative care is part of the answer, but that comes down to personal responisbility of Americans to seek it out.

• 36 LAL // Jun 25, 2009 at 1:18 pm

  Nope, but can you Tom, honestly say you believe people are responsible and will care if they had to pay out of pocket for their own health? Or will they just spend the extra salary instead of on health insurance premiums on new cars, bigger homes, then when ill they want a hand out?

• 37 tom // Jun 30, 2009 at 9:25 am

  To answer your question… it will be the latter, they will spend it on cars, stuff and then ask for a hand out when ill.

  This is not only a problem with healthcare, but with savings as we discussed in another post about manditory retirement savings. At what point do we just let people fail and say “sorry, you’re an idiot, you blew it, you did this to yourself… pick yourself up and learn from your mistake”?

• 38 LAL // Jun 30, 2009 at 11:53 pm

  Tom, agree it’s not just healthcare. When people fail what are you going to do? People will be happy with the minimum because the minimum will keep going higher and higher because people don’t save.

• 39 tom // Jul 1, 2009 at 9:04 am

  Nothing. That’s the thing… let them fail. Don’t do anything. They’ll eventually figure it out and learn from their mistakes. If it is too late, then that really sucks for you. You should have been more responsible for yourself.

• 40 LAL // Jul 1, 2009 at 9:29 am

  Really? If you are used to living paycheck to paycheck and spending everything, trust me a small monthly pension from SS is enough. They are happy with $1k/month. It’s easy to live on just paying the minimums.

  Credit is still given out. They have a paid for home typically. What bills are there?

  And it doesn’t suck. You can easily enjoy that lifestyle because you never worried so you’d be happy with what you have.

• 41 tom // Jul 1, 2009 at 12:54 pm

  I think we are talking about 2 different things. I think people can live happily on the minimum.

  You asked, when people fail, what are you going to do? I say don’t do anything. Let them fail and deal with the consequences.

• 42 LAL // Jul 1, 2009 at 2:23 pm

  Tom, I think you see living minimally as bad. The problem is that many who haven’t saved don’t. Like those who are overweight for 30 years and at 50 want to live! They will tell the doctor give me all the meds and surgeries. Or get ss disability after complaining about paying for it. Truth is everyone believes help is unnecessary until they need it.

• 43 tom // Jul 1, 2009 at 8:28 pm

  I don’t see living minimally as bad, in fact, if people lived minimally we might not be in our current crisis.

  I agree with your last statement, and my point is we need to, at some point, say “sorry, no help is available anymore, you should have saved, you should have lost weight, now deal with the situation you created.”

• 44 LAL // Jul 2, 2009 at 10:34 am

  And what will you do if you don’t give them a handout? Look at bankruptcy or foreclosure or repossession of cars? Nothing happens except it gets taken away.

  There is no jail time. No real repercussions. And all doctors are swearing an oath to help. So they won’t let someone just die.

  Cannot and will not ever happen. UNLESS one day every man for himself. Then the US will probably be empty because then it will justify shooting others and having no laws.

• 45 Meg from FruWiki // Jul 2, 2009 at 12:08 pm

  LAL,

  I think you hit on something, there.

  As many countries before us have found out, it does the rest of society no good to have a bunch of desperate people with no way up and out of their situation. Desperate people do desperate things. They turn to crime. In extreme cases, they turn to revolution.

  And not just that, but it even benefits the rich to have poorer — and even middle class — people thinking that one day they might be rich, too. Let’s face it, we live in a democracy where most people are not millionaires. So long as they feel like they could make it, they’re not going to do much against the rich. But when they feel like they’ll never be rich, that’s when they’re going to go after the rich with more taxes, etc.

  I can’t help but wonder if that’s what is going on now. I think a lot of people have given up hope of the American dream, that every generation can do better than the last and even the poorest might even become a millionaire. People see the class divide growing. And they’re getting frustrated because even when they do everything they think they’re supposed to do, and sacrifice, and work hard… they feel like they’re just running on a treadmill, or worse, slipping further into debt.

• 46 LAL // Jul 5, 2009 at 11:01 pm

  Meg, the class divide is worse than ever. I always quote the statistic that CEOs in 1980s made 40x the average worker. Now in 2009 they make 400x the average worker. The reality of the rich and middle class is stretching.

  The middle class is scrounging to get to stay middle class instead of falling into poor. And more are falling into poor.

  Truth is even if we had no credit and paid cash for everything, we’d still have those who didn’t save and expect help.

  When people are broke from cancer and need treatment will we really allow them to die?

  When people are at the end of their lives, do we refuse any treatment unless they can pay?

  Do we refuse surgery on a gunshot unless they have the cash in the bank? Things like this will never happen.

  The reality is there will always be free services and services rendered without payment upfront.

  And that will never change. Unless we decide who is rich and who is poor and who can die.

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