18 responses so far ↓

• 1 Frugal Urbanite // Jun 17, 2009 at 9:48 am

  I can see this in the neighborhood we moved into. Most of the families here are really struggling to meet the mortgage payments, but some just put more effort into keeping their houses and yards clean and taken care of.

  Mr. couldn’t understand why I was so mad at him for leaving a huge pile of clay and dirt in the middle of the lawn for 2 weeks instead of cleaning up after himself while he was putting in our walkway. He pointed out that a lot of the other houses were run down in front or had cruddy landscaping, completely missing the point that those other houses looked horrible.

• 2 Revanche // Jun 17, 2009 at 12:14 pm

  I hate to admit this but I think that my family doesn’t have that gene wherein, even if you’re poor, you make sure that everything is still presentable. It’s like it’s not worth the effort or something. It drives me up the wall. Even if we’re poor, we don’t have to look shabby or dirty!

  The carelessness was evident even when they felt relatively well-off so I doubt it had to do with giving up on your dreams. It may have more to do with the fact that people who don’t care enough to take care what they have aren’t the kind of people to do what it takes to create that better life. Or perhaps it’s both.

  Either way, I definitely want a better life, but I don’t need many things to achieve that. A better life includes good quality and taking care of what I do have.

• 3 Meg from FruWiki // Jun 17, 2009 at 12:38 pm

  Gah… this reminds me of growing up back home in redneck-ville (aka the “black hole” which few escape from). There’s people who live in mobile homes but who keep things looking best they can, and then there’s trailer trash, the kind of people who use their yard as a garbage dump and don’t think twice about throwing their beer bottles into their neighbors’ yards, either. You’ll see everything in their yards: broken bottles, plastic knick knacks, barbie dolls with the heads torn off, you name it!

  My mom didn’t have a lot of money then (or now) — probably less than a lot of our neighbors. But everyone thought we were RICH. Why? Because we didn’t trash our yard. My mom was out there so much taking care of things that people thought she was our gardener! And instead of a mobile home we lived in a large farmhouse she bought for $800 and renovated herself. Yeah, there was still the tiniest bit of daylight coming through my bedroom wall if you sat at the right angle, and the living room ceiling sags a bit (she did herself, by herself!), but everyone thought we lived in a MANSION — even my cousins from south Florida! And she did all this despite being a single mom, first after her first husband divorced her for another woman and then after my dad passed away.

  My mom’s first goal was always taking care of me and my siblings. She never made a lot of money. She never got a college degree. She was raised to be a housewife because that was what was expected, but that didn’t work out so well for her when she got left behind as a single mom. But she made sure we never felt poor because she taught us respect for ourselves and others. And I think that’s why we’ve always done pretty good despite where we grew up.

• 4 JoeP // Jun 17, 2009 at 1:11 pm

  If there is one thing I remember from my great-grandparents is a quote along the lines of, “There are few things as inexpensive as a bar of soap.”

  I always took that to mean that no matter how poor you were, keeping yourself and your surroundings clean was always possible, and I’d go further and say preferable. Taken further, being poor is no reason to be a slob.

  I think we *all* want things to be better than they were growing up, and want this to continue on to our children. But I think it is easy to fall into the trap of equating this with the amassing of possessions. For example, I don’t think I would be better off having 3 cars because my parents had 2, and I don’t think having a 3000 sq ft house is better than having one that is 1800 sq ft.

  Funny, looking at things through my kids’ eyes, I’d say they have it made! However, there will come a time when they might look back and be critical that we bought their bikes off craigslist, or that they had to wear clothes they didn’t like because the good clothes were in the laundry room, or that they didn’t get cell phones when they were 10. Maybe their values will instruct them to do differently for *their* kids, who knows!

• 5 amy // Jun 17, 2009 at 1:19 pm

  This post is great food for thought. LAL, my mom was like your mom in that appearances matter; however, she took a harsh turn. “Cleanliness is next to Godliness” was her constant refrain and she was derisive and judgmental of those who she felt didn’t meet her standards. Unfortunately we did not have the funds for a sewing machine so my hand me downs fit badly, and she would never have shopped at goodwill—that would have been admitting funds were strained. My dad grew up in an alcoholic household of eight kids and they slept 3 or 4 to a bed and didn’t always get their own pillow. He was fine with that, and is a person to whom possessions and appearances truly don’t matter. I don’t know if he wanted more for us, but my mom sure did and she was in charge.

  As a large family with one working-class income, we didn’t have really nice things, but they all matched—dishes, glasses, plates, silverware, pots and pans. We were not allowed to rest our head on the sofa lest the oil from our hair stain the fabric; that meant no lying down, just sitting up straight—a spotless sofa presented to the outside world was very important. Every Saturday everyone had a part in cleaning the house from top to bottom.

  I don’t think my parents wanted a “better” life for me. What does “better” mean? I was raised very rigidly to prioritize childbearing, church, finding a good provider and keeping up appearances. Instead I have prioritized economic independence, smart investing, triathlons, dinner parties, skiing, and vacations abroad. Yes, I want a better life than my parents had, but for me it has less to do with stuff and more to do with different choices. So I can’t really say they’re cheering me on in my “better” life.

  Go me!

• 6 dogatemyfinances // Jun 17, 2009 at 3:51 pm

  This is exactly it! My parents take very good care of their things, and always have. But some people just don’t care. You can see it in their yards (yuck!), but you can also see it in their kitchens and their bathroom.

  I think that when you give up on taking care of your things, you just accept your poverty, you give up.

• 7 amy // Jun 17, 2009 at 5:52 pm

  Also gotta say, one thing I took with me from childhood is prioritizing a clean bathroom! Our two big fabulous expensive sofas might be kind of scratched up and covered in cat hair, the cats might be hanging out on the counter while we cook dinner, but you will never be grossed out at the state of our bathrooms.

• 8 LAL // Jun 17, 2009 at 9:22 pm

  Frugal Urbanite, that’s how I feel if our front area looks messy. My DH says we’ll get to it, I’m like it has to look nice.

  Revanche, does your family abuse their stuff? Does it relate to their personal appearance?

  Meg, I definitely felt like we were middle class because we took so much effort in how we presented ourselves. I doubt we were, but it felt that way.

  JoeP, my grandfather said that too. He’s say did you wash your hands? I doubt you’ll kids will think that. I felt pretty rich and so did my DH and I don’t think we were.

  Amy, your mom sounds like my mom’s obessiveness. Funny. My whole family is quite clean. 3 sets of sheets, one in the wash, one on the bed, and spare. 3 towels, same thing. There is this whole cleaning routine. And yes bathrooms are always clean.

  Dog, I think it’s a matter of being proud of your belonging because they belong to you.

• 9 bogart // Jun 17, 2009 at 10:02 pm

  Interesting. If “doing better” means “having more” then I want out, as I don’t think ever-increasing consumption is sustainable (at the population level). And honestly I’d rather prioritize doing the things I enjoy, like owning (shaggy, messy) dogs and traveling over spending time cleaning my house. That said, I do believe in caring for stuff in ways that prolongs its longevity; thus, I do change my oil regularly but don’t wash my car (much, unless it’s exposed to salt — rare in the SE but not impossible).

• 10 LAL // Jun 17, 2009 at 10:58 pm

  Bogart doing better can be as simple as taking a vacation. My mom and I didn’t vacation because we were poor. Not broke, but poor. We were in credit card debt because of medical bills. We had one income, no child support. Medications up the wazoo.

  So I’m doing WAY better. Not just stuff, but in general. I don’t need to drink kool-aid, but I can if I want. I don’t have to buy used clothes or hand me downs.

  Basically I live better because I have choices. When you are poor, you have no choices. I wrote about it earlier in the year. Wealth allows choices. Being poor you don’t have the same options. You make do.

  I ate lots of spam and vienna sausages. I hate both meats now. I don’t eat them. I helped kill chickens for dinner. I know poor. And I live better.

  But even when we had to do that, my grandparents said, be good hosts. Treat people and things with respect. We didn’t have non-matching dishes. We kept everything clean. We washed the cars and vaccum.

  Think of it this way, instead of going out to have fun we spent time going to the library, cleaning the house, learning DIY projects. Money was saved because we did things ourselves.

• 11 LAL // Jun 17, 2009 at 10:59 pm

  And I have two dogs now. I grew up with dogs. But they were guard dogs mostly. They did bite people who attempted to break into our home. I grew up with German Shepards.

• 12 R. May // Jun 18, 2009 at 10:55 am

  There’s a vast difference between stating hand me downs and mismatched worn items are a sign of giving up and those who live in a state of squalor. I think from dog’s comment here she really meant the state of squalor. Unfortunately in the original post it was written in such away that it seemed that the issue was hand-me downs and mismatched items.

  I can honestly say I don’t think about doing better then my parents. And now that I am thinking about it due to this post – I don’t think that I could – strictly speaking. My father has a high level degree in a specialized field. He makes a good salary and has invested wisely. They own two houses, two cars, put four children through college. So no, I probably will never do finanicailly better then my parents.

  But I’m not interested. I want to put my daughter through college, have enough for a comfortable retirement. Save enough money to purchase a small little cape cod outright with no mortgage. That’s it. If you walk into my parents house – then walk into mine – heck if you just walk into mine – perhaps many people would think “She’s poor”. Apperances can be decieving.

  And my silverware will probably be mismatched till the day I die : )

  People have different ideas of success and different ideas of what they want in life. I don’t think it’s a fair statement that someone has given up simply because they are content with what they have – whatever that may be.

• 13 444 // Jun 18, 2009 at 1:02 pm

  This is interesting and it confirms something I knew/suspected. The responses are particularly interesting, I mean.

  My family, generations back more so than the one I grew up in, was well off as well as politically powerful (in their area, not where I reside now) and there has never been inordinate emphasis on appearances, neatness, cleanliness (beyond basic and decent) and knick-knacks, doo-dads, possessions, etc. Drawing attention to wealth would be totally unacceptable as well as just plain crass and rude. Proving something by being the one with the most-matched home accessories would be laughable and ludicrous. Cars are functional, not shiny objects of pride. I guess there just isn’t a need or desire to impress. It’s a difference in cultural mindset between socio-economic segments of society.

• 14 amy // Jun 18, 2009 at 2:23 pm

  Very well said 444, and to further illustrate your point, my family’s ancestral heritage is the opposite of yours: Irish potato famine victims (father) and general European poor (mother). Over the generations in the U.S., they worked themselves up from destitute, to poor, to working class (father’s side) and one step further to middle class (mother’s side). Most of my family is the embodiment of what your family isn’t: there is definitely an “inordinate emphasis on appearances, neatness, cleanliness (beyond basic and decent) and knick-knacks, doo-dads, possessions, etc.”

  I would also add to this mindset the following characteristics as well

  1. Children should be seen and not heard.
  2. Corporal punishment is a fact of life.
  3. Having only one child is selfish, strange, weird, and unacceptable.
  4. Only children are selfish and spoiled.
  5. Conform! What the neighbors think is very important.

  I know I am drifting off topic here, sorry. But I find this fascinating.

• 15 LAL // Jun 18, 2009 at 8:16 pm

  R. May I think it’s more that a lot of people who are poor, but live well are trying for a better life. They want to emulate what they perceive to be a rich person’s life.

  444, that’s because the wealthy can do what they want. Always been that way. My great-grandmother probably cleaned, took home the wash, and sewed for your family. She was a maid after her husband died and she was left with 8 children.

  The house was still impeccable. All her kids helped with the wash and sewing. In fact my grandmother’s sisters sewed from a young age to help support the family.

  So yeah they wanted what people better off had. I think when you are poor there is a perception that if you had money you’d be able to drive a car that doesn’t break down or has doors that open.

  Yet even when you drove a car like that you might attempt to bargain with a mechanic to paint it all one color for painting their house instead of a multi-colored car.

  My family never had new cars until my mom and her sibs “made” it. Until then all cars were basically junkers. But they were still washed, vaccumed, and cared for. It was pride of their possessions.

  The house I grew up in, the bathroom was outside. But it was clean. I bathed everyday even when I had water heated on a stove with wood. And I had clean clothes without holes. Trust me, wanting indoor plumbing isn’t too much to ask for. That and food not from a can.

• 16 bogart // Jun 18, 2009 at 9:50 pm

  LAL,

  OK. I certainly agree that there’s such a thing as “too poor,” i.e., conditions so basic that one “should” strive and strive and strive to get out of them. Conversely, I also think that there’s such a thing as “too much” consumption, whether that’s of stuff, or of vacations, or of services (I don’t mean too many days of vacation … I mean vacations that are “too” extravagant … consumption on vacation is still consumption).

  Nothing qualifies me to be the judge of how much is too much. I just think it exists. I suppose if someone bought a new car every year, or even every (gasp) 4 years, I’d consider that excessive (again, not that my opinion matters, but just to take a concrete example of something that’s come up). On the other hand, I have myself bought a new car in my lifetime, and might well again under similar circumstances (vehicle I planned to, and did, drive a long, long time) so I’m not systematically opposed to anyone buying a new car, ever.

  Lots of what I have, I don’t want “better” or “more” than my parents, because they had plenty and so do I. Ditto my kids. Not necessarily “lots” (but maybe so — depends on your baseline). But enough.

  I, personally, don’t necessarily relate to or want some things that others here have identified as important. I don’t have, or care to have, matched silverware. The vast majority of my clothing comes from thrift shops. But I own a horse, and for what I spend on his board and shoes ($410/month) could buy a lot … a lot … of matched silverware. So, yeah, I care. But I want to be the one who gets to define what “better” is (much like Amy). For me, better is having a horse and mismatched silverware rather than no horse and matched silverware (and having dogs, and dirt/dog hair often on the floor rather than no dogs and no hair, or even yes dogs and more frequent sweeping).

• 17 Meg from FruWiki // Jun 19, 2009 at 6:45 pm

  Bogart,

  I think it’s interesting you mention having a horse. When I was a kid we had horses (we also had four acres and several more we could use, so thankfully no boarding fees). Everyone thought we were soooo rich for having horses! And they were such a joy!

  And the funny thing is, they thought that despite the fact that I never had expensive clothes. It was thrift stores and hand-me-downs — and rarely did ANYTHING fit but the baggiest t-shirts, since I was tall and large chested (unlike everyone handing stuff down, lol).

  A big farm house, horses… those things were signs of wealth we didn’t even have. And in fact, they weren’t all that expensive compared to what others spent on cars and clothes — even in our area, which was rather poor.

  And though I like pretty things, I still am not all about the brands or even about stuff in general. Even less so, now. When I think of knick knacks, I think about the rather random collections of junk some friends of mine had — the sort of stuff you see for sale at 7-11s like plastic horses (that added up probably cost more than the real thing). Where we live now, there are nice collections on the mantles, but even “valuable” crystal collections don’t seem all that special to me if they’re just gathering dust.

  Give me an uncluttered home with enough room indoors and out to not feel claustrophobic, some good land to grow things in, and some sweet pets to spoil! And yes, some nice things, not too many, but good quality items that look nice and work even better so I don’t spend my evenings cursing at the can opener. That’s my idea of a better life!

• 18 LAL // Jun 19, 2009 at 10:01 pm

  I like just well preserved things. I like things in good condition and not dirty or unkempt.

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