23 responses so far ↓

• 1 Kristy // Sep 11, 2008 at 5:46 am

  I completely understand the problems with healthcare. Before my company merged with another one this year, I was paying almost $14,000 a year for a family plan. Every year my monthly payment went up by $200-$300. This year we have a HSA, with a high deductible. I love mine. I pay “only” $600 a month and that is with my employer contributing $250 per month. I also have a few hundred removed every month in case we hit the deductible of $2,400, which we will next year when I give birth (c-section). I have no idea what I will pay after that because I haven’t looked yet.

  Before we started a family, DH and I just had major medical insurance so we never went to the doctor, unless it was an absolute emergency.

  LAL - your issue may have been that you saw someone on-campus. I remember that the people that worked in our health department were not very good! I really hope that something happens with the healthcare system, no matter who is elected.

• 2 LivingAlmostLarge // Sep 11, 2008 at 10:36 am

  Currently I shouldn’t complain. My DH and I pay $100/month for one of the TOP healthcare plans in the nation. It was rated by AMA, US News Report, and NCQA. We have a PPO no less.

  Our copays are $10 and our deductible is $50 OOP. We have phenomenal coverage. Having a child will cost us almost nothing out of pocket.

  But according to an end of the year statement from DH’s company his benefits is something like $24k/year or $2k/month for our coverage.

  We also pay $5/month vision and $10/month dental insurance for top plans.

  Now I’m less worried about payment and more worried about getting to see a doctor.

  Sure part of it was a campus doctor, but who else are you going to see if you only have student health insurance? They don’t pay for you to go see a doctor off campus?

• 3 Jim ~ mydebtblog.com // Sep 11, 2008 at 10:55 am

  The problem with healthcare is the concept that if the government takes it over, it will run better. Socialism is a theory that looks great on paper but can never really work in the US. When you let hospitals run themselves in a free market, they do better because of the profit (gasp!) factor that keeps them going. We also have a ton of people illegally coming into this country getting free, socialized, healthcare. The anchor baby problem is another issue that is bankrupting this country.

  The biggest problem is this idea that we should get the best healthcare, and someone else pays for it. If you have to have a procedure that costs a bunch of money, who picks up the tab? A lot of companies are dropping certain insurance plans and going to high deductible ones, and the premium is still high. They cannot supplement the whole premium and the employee has to front more of the cost. If we disconnected our health insurance from our employer and paid for it directly, not only is it a tax deduction but you wouldn’t have to worry about COBRA if your job status changed.

• 4 LAL // Sep 11, 2008 at 1:47 pm

  Maybe Jim, but I have to wonder why socialized medicine is run so much more efficiently in other countries. It cost so much more here for free market that it’s not working.

  The major problem going with free market is how many insurance companies will really pay for “necessary” treatment? Talk to any nurse or doctor and they will tell you that insurance companies try to screw people all the time. They refuse to cover treatement that is not widely acceptable.

  So we’ll be stuck without protection, unless the government steps in an regulates their ability to pick and choose who to cover and how much to pay out.

• 5 Tim // Sep 11, 2008 at 2:32 pm

  LAL, socialized medicine systems aren’t necessarily run more efficiently in other countries. It costs the country tons of money. most importantly, most have a mix of socialized and private with many increasingly diverting costs towards private. although socialized systems cover basic stuff, they do not cover everything. Even in Canada, which you and others use as an example, 30% of health care costs are privately funded. it isn’t necessarily that it costs more here, than other places, although we spend highest per GDP on health care. That indicates that we are wasting lots of money. i would also like to see a study of the actual cost differences between health care costs and what you get for the cost, which I haven’t seen. that to me is a real indicator of if “socialized” medicine is a worth it or not.

  whatever either candidate calls it, both are throwing money at a broken system. increasing funding towards our current system in the name of making it a socialized system makes absolutely no sense and is a pure waste of money. the same goes if under the name of free market system. the actual cost of visiting a doctor, treatment, meds, etc is the real problem. Fix that, then use the resources whichever way you want to fund it. You are right, we are grossly inefficient.

• 6 Livingalmostlarge // Sep 11, 2008 at 4:48 pm

  I think part of the problem lies with the inefficiencies. Yes but there is more too it than that.

  Part of it is that in the US we expect everyone else to help us out when in trouble but until we get into trouble we don’t want to pay into the community pot.

  I have no issue helping people out and mitigating the risk with one insurance. BUT others have to accept it too. People act very selfishly until they can’t afford it then they want all the help.

• 7 Kristy // Sep 11, 2008 at 7:09 pm

  Here’s the thing, I don’t want to help anyone else out. The only people asking for help where I am are the people that didn’t have insurance in the first place. I am talking about all of the fundraisers for people who have high medical bills, I see it all the time. So no, I don’t want to help those people out. They should have had insurance.

• 8 LivingAlmostLarge // Sep 11, 2008 at 7:58 pm

  That’s why if we all contribute no one can “opt” out and whine later.

• 9 Tim // Sep 12, 2008 at 10:12 am

  it’s the whole tragedy of the commons conundrum. LAL, you are correct, we feel that everyone else should help us out when we are in trouble rather than doing at least the basics ourselves. So I agree with Kristy, too.

• 10 Livingalmostlarge // Sep 12, 2008 at 11:18 am

  Not really. The enforcement of savings works. Why do you think people could retire with pensions? They learned to live on less.

  Instead you have these people now whining about not having enough but yes they didn’t save any themselves.

  The problem Kristy and Tim, is nothing has ever happened to make you on the short end of the stick. Would that you fall into that category perhaps more empathy would be given to those who did.

  It’s very easy to quickly fall into that category. One blog I’ve read, the Wastrel Show, has pointed out that debt is bad. She is now debt free. But she says that everyone can be unemployed like her husband for 3 years! Think that didn’t drive them to the brink of financial ruin? It did! I can’t imagine being in that position, but I’m sure it’s not easy. What would your advice have been?

  Yowsa! Or some of the others I’ve mentioned above. The first guy who had melanoma and leukemia. He works out, eats healthy, and yet will be stigmatized for life. He also had savings to pay for his $10k out of pocket costs, but what happens if it reoccurs and he can’t work and starts dipping into savings?

  Or would you like to be 31 years old, single with breast cancer? I know someone who used up a chunk of her savings while getting chemo treatment and it took about 1 year and she’s still not done. She still needs reconstructive surgery. She is now back at work, but it’s HARD.

  By the way without an income to depend on, she had disability but it was 50% of her salary. And she had to pay her bills. She fortunately got to live rent free with her brother and his family who cared for her when she had chemo and couldn’t drive.

  Her savings? As she put it, has been wiped out. She was responsible and saved for retirement and a was saving for a house, that is now all gone. Of course if she were married she’d have had someone to care for her and income. But sorry she didn’t.

  I think that empathy comes from being in the situation of being there.

  Do I think people should save more, yes. But perhaps not making it an option, so we don’t have to pay for uninsured people would work better.

• 11 Kristy // Sep 12, 2008 at 11:32 am

  Please don’t think that you know me. I grew up poor, by poor I mean we had no car, we ate mac n cheese and peanut butter sandwiches, we were lucky to have a place over our heads. I came from nothing and while I understand that emergencies happen, you need to plan and save for them. This is why people have health insurance, life insurance, disability insurance, etc. To PREPARE for events that may or may not happen. I have plenty of empathy, I donate to charities, I donate food to the food bank, etc. I don’t have empathy for people that overspend and don’t have health insurance.

• 12 LivingAlmostLarge // Sep 12, 2008 at 3:10 pm

  And when you needed care where would it have come from? If you need care now where will it come from? 100% paid by your insurance? I don’t think so.

  Yes you plan and save but life happens. I don’t think David planned on his costs either. But he had insurance and still paid $10k OOP?

• 13 David // Sep 12, 2008 at 3:28 pm

  I have health care with BCBS - and still owe $10K in bills in addition to my premiums. And that is after only having a melanoma removed and going through some tests for leukemia. Wanna know how much my CT scan cost me directly? Over $2.5K out of my own pocket.

  Don’t tell me that anyone who needs help (and I don’t need help, I have money) created their own situation. I didn’t give myself these health problems; I just happen to be lucky enough to be able to afford them. Heaven forbid I have anything worse down the line.

  And as for socialism complaints - almost everything in society is some form of it - police, fire, libraries, parks, roads, bridges…even the oil companies get subsidies from my tax dollars. So please, spare me the “socialism ruins everything” argument; it just doesn’t stand up to scrutiny anymore in today’s society. Either get rid of any and everything paid for with tax dollars so we are on our own for everything, or fix the system so we can take care of fellow humans. Richest country on earth and we are the only ones who cannot give health care to it’s citizens; it’s embarrassing. Sure, oil companies can have billions in subsidies, but no, you sir who is making $10 an hour cannot have help with your medical bills. How ridiculous is that?

• 14 David // Sep 12, 2008 at 3:34 pm

  Kristy - I hope you have hundreds of thousands of dollars saved in case you get cancer. My dad’s treatments cost them over $150K…and then he died leaving my mom to pay them.

  Heaven forbid you actually get sick and need help.

• 15 Kristy // Sep 12, 2008 at 6:03 pm

  Back when we were poor (and I was a kid, so had no say in anything), I am sure that we were on some kind of governmental assistance program. My mom used it for what it is for, to help someone in dire times. WE were not on it forever.

  Now, My insurance would cover me if something were to happen. YOu are right, it would not cover it all. I have to pay the deductible and then it is 100% covered except for the copays and deductible.

  David, you are obviously not who I am talking about, you saved money and had a backup for if something happens. Most people do not. And I don’t feel like my tax dollars should go to those who are not helping themselves.

  I am not some horrible person who just doesn’t want to pay more in taxes, I help out plenty of people through other means such as donations. I just don’t feel like universal health care will be good for our country. Right now I can see our pediatriciain the day I call, with universal care, I’m afraid that I will have to wait days for my daughter to be seen. How will that help our country if we have long waits to even be seen by our doctors? I agree that the system needs changed, I just don’t agree that universal is the way to do it.

• 16 LivingAlmostLarge // Sep 12, 2008 at 9:47 pm

  Actually Kristy, David I think had a HDHP but there are things not covered under the deductible. Some things do not qualify and you have to pay 100% OOP, like the CT scan. Ouch.

  You never know what your insurance will cover until they don’t cover it. Even with regular insurance they say they will cover it but they don’t.

  Like I said a friend paid 100% of her deductibles 2007 and 2008 and then some. She kept getting bills after bills and when she called she was told it wasn’t covered.

  Most universal plans they see you that day. I believe you are being mislead about universal care. The issue isn’t with preventative care or needs. Typically people are seen faster under universal care because there are more primary care physicians.

  However, specialists are no longer paid as much and thus there is less need. So the wait for specialists and surgeries, MRI, etc are longer.

  Primary care needs are actually meet faster. In Canada they have these walk in clinics where you can see doctors faster than in the US. Instead of people going to the ER, they go to the urgent care walk-ins.

  This is also true in asia and some European countries. In the US people go to the ER unnecessarily because they can’t see their primary care doctors. On savingsadvice a primary care doctor says he knows this is true but he already sees a TON of patients. But doctors don’t want to be primary care because they make so much less than specialist.

  In the US the number of specialists by far outstrip PCP. And even moreso, I know doctors in residencies who switch after 1 year in PCP to specializations! They refuse to finish in PCP because it’s not prestigious, low paying, too much work! Literally in their own words.

  In other countries they push more PCPs. Thus they have more preventative and primary care workers. In the US the specializations are more desirable and people go to PCP for 1 year and then switch into specialization, or they do a residency and a fellowship in a specialization! Eek.

  Inefficient? Yes. Stupid? Yes. Crazy? Yes. Sad? Yes. But who can blame them when the average PCP is $90k and specialist makes $250k?

• 17 Kristy // Sep 13, 2008 at 5:37 am

  LAL - I just spoke to someone about my high deductible plan yesterday. I am giving birth next year via c-section and will no doubt hit my deductible. Everything is covered after the deductible except for my copays.

  As far as universal care is concerned, I don’t think it will be more efficient than it is now. I get in to see my primary care physician the same day, sometimes the same hour that I call. That is efficient. I don’t want to wait forever to see a specialist if I have cancer, I could die before I ever get an appointment.

  I have heard stories and seen documentaries on universal health care. Canadians actually come down to the US to be seen because it is faster! Where are we going to go when we can’t be seen? Do you think I want to see someone die just because we can’t get an office visit? I already live in an area where specialists are few and far between. When my DD had hip dysplasia when she was born, I had to drive 3 hours to see a specialist…there was no one where we are to see her. Luckily I only had to wait 2-3 weeks.

• 18 Mike // Sep 13, 2008 at 4:08 pm

  I just lost my wife to Renal Cell Cancer back in July so the Universal Health Care argument is one I feel very strongly about.

  I am 100% against any form of socialized health care. All this form of health care does is destroy any form of innovation. Spend some time on the Cancer boards where the Europeans are screaming for the advanced Cancer drugs available here in the US and you will see the true problems associated with socialized health care. If my wife had lived in Europe or Canada she would of been hooked straight up to a morphine drip and left to die up on diagnosis. Instead she was treated by the best in the world at Memorial Sloan Kettering where ironically enough all the Europeans with money end up when they get the Big C. My wife lived 14 months from when the Cancer was first found and most of it with good quality of life and pain free.

  We surely do need a solution to our health care crisis but letting the people you brought us the DMV and Social Security offices isn’t the answer.

• 19 LivingAlmostLarge // Sep 13, 2008 at 7:54 pm

  Mike, I’m sorry for your loss. But do you have medical insurance and money? Are you poor? Or do you have money and connections to get treatment at Memorial Sloan?

  I know that with money in the US you get a lot better treatment. A friend of mine got herpacin C monoclonal antibody treatment. It’s not covered by her insurance and she OOP. It’s not standard of care, thus she had to foot the bill.

  Does it make it fair that she could but someone else who made less than she does (she was making mid 6 figures at 32), should not get the same level of care?

  Like she said, she has the best doctors and best medical treatments because she could afford it. She hired the best surgeon and paid whatever insurance wouldn’t cover.

  She had her radiation and chemotherapy done by the best. Because of her work, one of our graduate student friends works at the FDA doing approvals. She talked to her about the most cutting edge research and who to go and what it would cost. She was willing to fork over mucho dollars.

  But not everyone can afford it, nor have the same contacts.

  Of course the US spends more than every other country on healthcare. So it’s not free. We’d pay less with a socialized system because of the costs we pay with our free market system.

  But part of it is many americans doesn’t trust the government to help them out.

  And a major thing your forgetting. About 70 years ago before WWII, healthcare was truly free market. Meaning if you could afford care you get it.

  We are proposing going back to that system. So soon if you have money and can afford treatment you will be seen. If you can’t tough.

  You will be hooked up to die if you happen to born poor. The truly free market healthcare is going to be impossible. We’ve moved towards it in retirement plans with 401k, be responsible for ourselves. It’s not working out so well.

  But with healthcare? Sounds good now, but what happens when people realize that they can’t afford what they “expect” to be able to afford?

  Then the screaming will be louder than socialists. Socialists at that point will afford more than who have to pay OOP.

  Lots of readers on here comment on personal responsibility. Well lack of it already, I can’t imagine a free market healthcare. There will be hell to pay when you tell people they can’t afford the newest cancer treatments!

  They’ll blame everyone but themselves. And suddenly question the same system they once proposed.

• 20 Mike // Sep 14, 2008 at 9:54 am

  LAL- While I can appreciate your arguments I’ll still have to disagree. I have excellent insurance because I work hard to provide for my family. Socialized health care will not improve or cheapen my benefits the only outcome of it will be an increased cost to me to help pay for the less fortunate. And frankly I’m tired of helping the less fortunate.

  After my wife was diagnosed we waited the 6 months and applied for Social Security benefits. You want an eye opened to the evils of socialism take a day off and go hang out at your local SS office. There you will get to see all of the stereotypes right in front of your face. I work hard and make over 100K but I easily had the worst car in the parking lot and I was the only one with a job! Well of course we were denied. We never re-applied because frankly I want nothing to do with the system anymore. It really made me realize that no matter how hard I or my wife work the government is just going to take it to help the “less fortunate”.

  The old fable about the ant and the grasshopper is coming true except this time the grasshoppers have the full backing of the Federal government. So at this point in my life if the less fortunate can’t eat or get health care I really don’t care. Harsh, yes but no one ever said life is fair.

• 21 LivingAlmostLarge // Sep 14, 2008 at 2:22 pm

  Mike, I’ve been to a SS office. More than once in multiple states. They aren’t as bad as they seem.

  You want government bureacracy? Go sit in the INS office and see what it’s like to be there.

  I think the problem also lies with the fact you are assuming all these people at SS office are not working. I guess if you saw me or my DH you’d assume that and I walked into the office no car at the time. So I’d look like a worthless person who isn’t working.

  But is it fair to “Assume” that? Is is right to judge based on looks (and my DH and I look really young, we’re still carded for alcohol everywhere)?

  I think right now you are mad about your treatment at the US healthcare. But trying being someone who works hard but makes a lot less? Who works 40 hours a week and doesn’t have insurance?

  All you see is what you perceive to be people who are taking handout. People you assume aren’t working and are lazy. But do you really know the whole situation?

  I know a commenter on here has a sibling with schizophrenia. Can’t hold down a job, must take medication, and is trying. I feel sympathy because it sounds like my sister’s SIL, except with down’s syndrome.

  Not everyone you see is lazy and unmotivated. I think your attitude rather harsh and judgemental.

  I wonder if people making $40k and struggling to make ends meet would feel to much harshness?

• 22 LivingAlmostLarge // Sep 16, 2008 at 8:29 pm

  Here is a recently published study that ER usage in the US has increased in usage by people who have insurance and used to visit the doctors.

  The problem is that they are “abusing” the ER because they are unable to get appointments with primary care physicians. Want to talk about waste and a broken system?

  This new article reports a study conducted by UCSF on ER visits.

  http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6WB0-4S8TR7D-2&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=e1add283aeae10d17da67f14369d1b5c

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