I get a lot of crap from people for suggesting that people dating go Dutch on the first date. I get even more crap because so called “feminist” say whoever “asks” pays. UNTRUE! Validation! Here is an article where it says women want men to pay for the first date.
So how is it possible that we are “equal” to men yet still expect them to pay for the first date or else it’s a no-go on the second date? According to the article it’s a way to “judge” a man’s ability to provide.
We women want providers so men, strong, tough men. And apparently men want to pay because they want to be “hunters”. I hate to say this, but women wonder why men aren’t “attracted” to successful women? Well here’s why.
Women who expect a man to pay, while proclaiming independence are playing a game. I paid my way with my DH and every other man. I put myself out there as an independent woman from the first date. And I had guys asking me out anyway! My mom taught me be self-reliant. Men are great, fantastic, amazing.
Here Fabulously Broke asks “successful woman = no dating?” My response not to her, but in general, stop being so picky. And I guarantee you that the women in the article were expecting a man to pay for ALL DATES, not just the first. But these successful women I guarantee, if a man didn’t pay for the first date they would not accept a second.
These successful women were also looking for $100k+ salary, minimum master’s or higher education, romantic, and “respectable” career (doctors, laywers, business, etc). Also the responses from FBIC’s post, something which most women agreed with was that you had to marry a “higher up/equal” man. While men could marry “lower” hierarchy women.
I think that’s the MAJOR problem with “women”. We say we want to be equals, but we don’t mean it. We won’t date men lower on the financial ladder. While we expect every man to pay for dates because it’s romantic, even if he makes less. And if he makes less then we aren’t interested in dating him because he can’t afford the image we “think” we want.
Classic example Drew Barrymore in Fever Pitch “he’s nice, but he’s a teacher.” Friend 1 “give him a chance”. Friend 2 “Because he’s a teacher, he’s got a small…income.”
So how has this helped the feminism cause? And if men WANT to date less “hierarchy” women, maybe it’s because they put on less pretentious airs? Or maybe it’s because they are more open to dating any man that asks? Not putting “restrictions” on the status, career, etc of a man.
When asked, how many women will date a police officer, fireman, teacher, etc? Are those not respectable career professions? But they aren’t “status” professions. Or what about writer, photographer, social worker, etc. Low paying jobs? Then the man is unambitious.
So how are we to navigate dating and relationships if the most important factor is money? Does that mean people are not educated, have low paying jobs had better be women so they can marry up? Will only educated men marry less educated women? And the educated women and less educated men be left single?
13 responses so far ↓
1 Fabulously Broke // Apr 15, 2008 at 5:22 pm
Pretty much
I feel like it’s a societal, cultural thing and you get SO MUCH flack from others if you deviate that it just isn’t worth the pain.
It’s like we’ve been conditioned to think that way (women marry up, men marry down)
But these women at the top who are left single (you made a great point), are just probably too picky (which is something BF ALWAYS says)
however with that being said… I do want the guy to pay for the first date. Even if it’s just a pizza
I like the romantic gesture, but after that, it’s fair game to reciprocate and/or go Dutch
2 Mrs. Micah // Apr 16, 2008 at 12:29 am
My grandfather always said “Go dutch so he can’t ask you to provide dessert.” He thought relationships should stay on equal financial footing and such until you’re both comfortable enough that it won’t be an issue if one person pays more.
3 frugal zeitgeist // Apr 16, 2008 at 1:31 am
My guy and I just take turns paying; that’s what we’ve done from the beginning, and that’s what I’ve always done anyway. It works for us. He makes way more than I do, but he has two kids and I have a much bigger nest egg.
How about looks? Who do you think is pickier, men or women?
4 Meg // Apr 16, 2008 at 3:26 am
I think a woman should always offer to pay (especially if she initiated the date) or go dutch on a first date - and she should be fully prepared to actually do so. But I WOULD be a bit taken aback if the guy actually said “yeah, OK” and let me pay. Not because I’m being fake or I am not independent, but because it says a lot about the guy, his values, and his feelings about me.
But I read a hugely interesting article this week about a study that was done that shows the most successful marriages (measured by happiness of both individuals) are those in which the woman is more attractive than the man.
This is allegedly because men value attractiveness above all else, whereas women value supportive husbands (whether financial or emotional is not specifically addressed). Men with more attractive wives are more likely to work hard at the relationship, be responsive to the wife, and be supportive. Men with equal or less attractive wives feel (subconsciously, perhaps) that they could always “do better” and are less inclined to do the same.
So, in short, whoever has the upper hand in a relationship can get what they want out of their partners. If you’re a woman, you’re biggest asset is your looks. If you’re a man, it’s your income, your status, and/or your ability to be sensitive and empathetic - it depends on what kind of “support” your female most desires.
5 Jim ~ mydebtblog.com // Apr 16, 2008 at 2:07 pm
You’ve been tagged!
6 georgia // Apr 16, 2008 at 4:45 pm
There is a fish in the sea for everyone. One for the guy who wants a trophy wife and one for the woman who’ll only date a millionaire. There are lots of fish for those of us who just want to be happy and proud of our partners. Partners - not providers, partners.
My fiance and I have the same goal: to individually make enough money to allow the other to stay home (& raise a kid) if they choose. We want to have options when it comes to our families, travels and our life together. It’s about being able to pull your own weight whether it be with the benjamins or by scrubbing the toilet.
7 Livingalmostlarge // Apr 17, 2008 at 1:22 pm
Meg, you crack me up. What does it say about a guy who doesn’t want to pay on the first date? What if he is broke and watching his pennies? LOL.
I don’t think it’s indicative of being cheap because then women like you, who don’t want to pay should be called cheap.
That’s the whole premise of being socially inequal. That women want to be “equals” and then we around and expect to be treated. Equals in all things.
8 Meg // Apr 18, 2008 at 3:15 am
If a guy doesn’t want to pay on the first date, then it says he is socially inept, rude, or at the very least apathetic with regard to me. None of which reasons would prompt me to want to see him again (which is fine, if that’s what he’s going for). If he is merely broke then he should have suggested a free/cheap date, such as an afternoon in the park or at the museum.
Paying on the first date is not about being cheap or generous - it’s about social etiquette. Relationships develop with the flow of the give and take. And in general we all still prefer the man to initiate the giving by initiating and paying for the first date (even men report this in surveys). The woman should by all means reciprocate by insisting to pay for the next date (or the rest of the first date), or treating him to a home cooked meal, or what have you.
It’s all about managing expectations. We all still expect the man to do the proposing, too; does that make me cheap that I would expect my BF to buy me an engagement ring rather than the other way around? Of course not. But it also doesn’t mean I really care about the ring itself.
And for the record, I for one do NOT think women and men are or should aspire to be equals (though obviously we should have equal rights and opportunities). We are not the same; we are different - though both genders are equally incredible and beautiful and necessary and valuable.
So there
9 Livingalmostlarge // Apr 18, 2008 at 2:10 pm
So a man should pay even if you did the inviting? Please join me for a coffee? How about that for cheap? And you stand in line and he pays for his own?
Then he’s rude, apathetic, and socially inept? Sorry but that doesn’t fly with me.
NO WAY. Hence why I think there are many single, successful women. You want equality in the workplace and at home, then you have to have it everywhere.
Including dating. Many women mouth off if they invite the guy they will pay but do they really?
So right back at you. I call you on insisting a guy pays.
If you insist on a man paying maybe he’ll think you a princess. And perhaps that’s the reason behind singledom.
10 K. // Apr 18, 2008 at 2:54 pm
Are women really equal in the household? For the most part, no. Women still do the majority of the housework, cooking, and childcare. I know too many women who work 40+ hours a week, pay half of the bills at home, yet still the majority of the grocery shopping, cooking, cleaning, etc. That’s not ‘fair’ or ‘equal.’ I think that women are starting to realize that and are rethinking this feminism shit.
11 Meg // Apr 23, 2008 at 1:40 am
FYI, I do not insist on a guy paying EVER. I always offer (sincerely!) to pay on the first date, but I’ve yet to go out with a guy who didn’t insist on picking up that check. When there’s a second date (or a second part of the first date), I always insist on paying then so he knows I’m not a “princess.” From there on out things should be more or less equal (unless you ARE a princess and intend to convey that important fact about yourself).
That I would question a man’s motives and feelings who let me pay for the first date is only rational; we humans analyze everything about each other, and that’s a significant cue on a first date.
I must point out that when writing about this I’ve been picturing and discussing the more formal date (where one person asks the other person out days in advance, and you go to a sit down dinner where a waiter takes your order). There are other circumstances where I wouldn’t think anything of it if the guy didn’t pay on the first date. Standing in line to simultaneously order and pay (at Starbucks or anywhere) is one such situation.
In general though, I do think the most polite, expected, smoothest, and comfortable thing for all involved is for the man to pick up the check on the first date. The reason is not that I want to be equal to men everywhere except when it comes to paying for stuff. I can support myself, thank-you-very-much, and I make sure every guy I date knows it.
But for God’s sake somebody has to pay the first check. Can we please stop acting like expecting a man hold the door or pay for dinner once in awhile makes us anti-feminist gold-diggers? If you read my first comment it’s all about the ebb and flow of giving and taking on BOTH SIDES. It has to start somewhere. I’m OK doing the giving first, but in general I EXPECT (not demand) that it be the man. So sue me.
12 Livingalmostlarge // Apr 23, 2008 at 1:42 am
I find it the greatest irony that a very successful woman would insist on it. Which leads to the question as to why men aren’t dating successful women? Is it because of the mixed signals?
13 Petrov // May 8, 2008 at 10:42 am
Men aren’t dating successful women because the women are working late and don’t have time. They’re too busy being “successful” working “for the Man”.
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